debate

tbh, veganism is kinda stupid. we need animals anyways for manure to complete the cycle with //FOOD FOR ANIMALS => ANIMALS => MANURE FOR PLANTS => FOOD FOR ANIMALS// also, explain to me why vegetarianism is ethically hypocritical? in what way exactly? because it's really not. my ethical reason for being vegetarian would be something among the lines of: "If you are keeping animals just to kill them, that's evil". My logical reason for being vegetarian is that meat produces too much CO2 for the green house effect, and every bit helps.

@yestotally on b12, it is actually a product of bacteria, not animals. We usually get it from animals as they are either injected with it in large scale farms, have their food enriched with it, or I guess in free range eat grass along with the bacteria that produced it (the bacteria would live in the ground). We can easily, and cheaply produce b12 in the lab and do the same. Bioavailability isn't generally a problem if the tablets are chew ones and not swallowed (it can be absorbed in our early digestive tract, but stomach acid destroys loose b12).

so your vegetarian because of environmental reasons? thats fair, but why wouldn't you go vegan and contribute 0 to the CO2 emissions and deforestation where do you think they get the milk for your cereal my dude? and yeah, b12 is a bacteria in soil i think and meat is fortified with it because its hard to come by naturally or some shit meats are fortified with vitamins just like vegan food is

fuck you dude i debated people for multiple pages before tapping out to do some writing xD leo and mio both tap out for irl stuff so i will too plus ill throw in my gad makes it hard to get into serious discussion, so i get really anxious about debating and shit until im in the middle of it and then im having a blast xD ok yes, can i beat the shit out of a dog because itll make it taste better? is that morally ethical? or skin the dog before its fun for me? where does the line between fun and morals end? dear lord dude animals dont feel a thing while they get killed? your kidding right xD? i just need to to explain what you mean exactly before i tackle that veganism isnt the perfect diet and never have i said that, theres no such thing as the perfect diet, but as far as diets go it is the most healthy, ethical, and best for the planet my dude yes, exactly, humans are made to survive on certain foods and guess what meat aint one of them xD find me a healthy study that says we need to eat meat to live, because i can find yous studies that say people are perfectly healthy with 0 meat or animal by products from what you said above, ill tell YOU to not get in a debate about veganism when clearly you dont know what your talking about *mic drop*

1. i'm gonna have to drop out of the cholesterol debate, we just won't come to an agreement on this because i will stick with my argument that your body produces its own cholesterol and having low cholesterol is much healthier than higher, and many animal products are high in cholesterol along with saturated fats. we're going around in circles at this point, so let's agree to disagree 2. Then what will it take to make you concede that animals are sentient? First it was "intelligence" then it was "creativity" then when i found scientific research it was "one study isn't enough" and then it's "a handful of studies aren't enough" What gives an Octopus sentients where as a pig doesn't? And what does sentients have anything to do with the ability to perceive pain and suffering? How will a octopus react differently to a pig when thrown in fire that makes them so different? I honestly really really want to understand your point of view on this because i'm lost on the importance of sentients to begin with. Can you give me more evidence that they don't have sentients? Can you debunk my assertions? 3. See, you're helping my point in that same vein. Farming animals to live a life of suffering is horrible, like slavery. I'll say it again dude, veganism is about doing as little harm and suffering as you can do, and having a computer is 100% necessary in this day and age. What's more extreme, having to walk 10 miles to the local library (because cars are bad for the environment) to hop on a computer, or just eat more carbs, fruits, and vegetables? oof hard choice my dude i don't know. Again, we are going around on circles on this, might as well throw it away as well. 4. To not have to suffer undue suffering is absolutely a right. That's why we have laws in place to protect the citizens against things like rape and theft. The american court system is absolutely based in feels over reals. Should it be? No but that argument doesn't work in here. How are slaughterhouses not a part of undue suffering when we don't even need meat to be healthy? When the amount of consumption is killing the earth and human beings. You can't appeal to the laws lol. So if it was lawful to kill it's morally ethical?? Slavery was legal at one point, was that morally ethical because of that? You need give me logic to tell me why it's ok for one potential to outweigh another. 5. Slaughterhouses are not a quick kill, and if your so for "as little harm as possible" why not become vegetarian right now? Not even vegan, vegetarian. That would be the most ethical thing, or are you going to appeal to taste pleasure? Because if so then you can throw out your "as little harm as possible notion. "Depends on the slaughterhouse, a quick bullet to the brain is all but painless. Is it stressful on the way to the slaughterhouse? Possibly. But that's not much of an argument." So undue suffering isn't part of an ethics debate? Elaborate, please. And heres some footages from those "painless" slaughterhouses, my dude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz2TvpVqZ7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pixGkSFBty0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGrMA-l8TE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh8Fp72Spe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGky2SA_q9c " It's the fact humans experience PTSD due to their own actions, that they understand what thy are doing and the ramifications both before and after them, unlike most animals." I don't understand this, humans experience PTSD due to their own actions? Pretty sure a woman who was beaten didn't develop it due to her own actions. I know your referencing the slaughterhouse workers, but they have the same form of PTSD as abused kids do, so you can't just try and distinguish them. Just as the child or woman didn't do anything to provoke the attacker, neither did the animals. About the crow thing, i direct you to my above question on what makes sentients so important about cruelty. I'll ask again because i didn't get a good enough answer, why can't i ethically skin a stray dog alive and then eat it but farm animals can be tortured? I'm not sure your stance on leather but they literally skin the animal alive there, and thats the least of what they do let me tell you. So aliens would be morally justified in farming us for food as we farm animals? Do you know what the Golden Rule is? It's that everyone should treat others as they want to be treated, so what moral grounds would these aliens have over us to eat us? i apologies if i came off as too edgy or aggressive, had to much coffee and its pretty late.

one last thing yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb5ryzXVReQ OOF hope you dont eat kroger eggs and if you wanna turn the debate into ethics, im ready for ya baby

Animals suffer yes, but can not comprehend suffering to the extent a human can. There for, treating them like humans or better than humans seems illogical. With growing technology creating artifical meats and planet based alternatives, its hard to argue that vegan isn't the way to go without sounding like a complete asshole, but i'd say any type of animal abuse hurts the observing humans more mentally than the animal. Animals are instinctual and only have trace amounts of higher brain functions. Animal rights should be much different than human rights because of this.