debate

i dont want a link, i want a concise study that shows it is a risk for vegans as much as heart disease is to carnists ok so you agree that the less meat the better, so why is the logical extension of that no meat at all? and can you tell me why having a recommended about of carbs is bad for your health? so the number one cause of mortality in America is heart disease, and the number one cause is meat. is it not logical to say getting rid of that meat and simply supplementing for anything you may be missing because of that is not the best option for your health?

"Vegetarian diets are associated with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality. Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favorable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance." it states in the conclusion that vegetarian diets leave you at a lesser risk for all cause mortality in the metaanalysis

@bruschettebites With dumb i meant people who cant make proper decisions and if pressed might pull their gun to threathen each other seen it a couple times. i would like sticter regulation on who can own guns apart from that i'm fine with it.

@momoichi Can u show me a concise study that shows heart disease is a risk to carnists as much as anemia is to vegans? There is no study that compares them, but I can actually test that indirectly by comparing the two studies we saw. But it will take time :V Less meat the healthier is not what I agree to, what I agreed to is meat within the limits of dietary intake. In fact, I would also say, irrespective of meat or plant, the food has to be within the limits of dietary nutrition value. If u overeat potatoes chips every day, even they can cause extreme health problems. Number one cause of heart disease is meat? What?? Can u show me where you read that? Infact it is not very clear if meat is even a cause of heart disease, only the studies that do not eliminate fast food shows a link, which is also quite weak. And even with the study u linked, the difference is so small, that if u thought meat to be the number one cause of heart diseases, then that would make vegan food to be the no.2 cause, which makes no sense ryt? And I read ur linked study again https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4691673/ it actually comments that specificaly only fish eaters had a higher mortality rate regarding circulatory diseases, the meat eaters and vegans had insignificant differences.

@jesper0 most people don't have gun training and don't know how to handle a stressful situation and have no experience firing guns and just keep them for emergencies which is not how it should be.

"Less meat the healthier is not what I agree to, what I agreed to is meat within the limits of dietary intake." Sure, but it seems like it would be the logical extension. "Infact, I would also say, irrespective of meat or plant, the food has to be within the limits of dietary nutrition value. If u over eat potatoes chips everyday, even they can cause extremely health problems." But the issue isn't over eating potato chips, it is that meat has no real nutrience that you need to eat. It has iron and that's it. And you can supplement for it. So why shouldn't I simply supplement it and forgo the cholesterol, saturated fats, and heme iron? "Number one cause of heart disease is meat? What?? Can u show me where you read that?" https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronary-artery-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20350613#:~:text=High%20levels%20of%20cholesterol%20in,as%20the%20%22bad%22%20cholesterol. The leading cause of artirial plague build up is cholesterol, which a vegan diet is devoid of completely, where as meat is extremely high in cholesterol. It isn't a stretch to say meat is the leading cause, though I can throw eggs in there as well. It also has heme iron in it which also is a contributing factor, and again, there is none in a vegan diet. Chicken is hardly any better for cholesterol https://www.healthline.com/health/high-cholesterol/cholesterol-in-chicken No, no, did I link that? I meant to link this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/

"Sure, but it seems like it would be the logical extension." Is less food the healthier the logical extension to food within the dietary limits? "But the issue isn't over eating potato chips, it is that meat has no real nutrience that you need to eat. It has iron and that's it. And you can supplement for it. So why shouldn't I simply supplement it and forgo the cholesterol, saturated fats, and heme iron?" You get a rich amount of proteins, B12, other micro-nutrients. There is more cholesterol, but that can be adjusted with higher fibre from the plants and u can monitor how much cholesterol u r intaking if u r that worried. There is lower carbs, which is really good for health. "https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronary-artery-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20350613#:~:text=High%20levels%20of%20cholesterol%20in,as%20the%20%22bad%22%20cholesterol. The leading cause of artirial plague build up is cholesterol, which a vegan diet is devoid of completely, where as meat is extremely high in cholesterol. It isn't a stretch to say meat is the leading cause, though I can throw eggs in there as well. It also has heme iron in it which also is a contributing factor, and again, there is none in a vegan diet." Nope it is a stretch, cause ur body also makes cholesterol. The cholesterol u get from diet is not the only source. And the no. 1 cause of high cholesterol in plague build up is due to decreased HDL (High density cholesterol lipoproteins), which can be inherited or lack of excerice, the other causes are increased LDL (low density cholesterol lipoproteins). So lack of excericise or genetic predisposition, is therefore the most common cause of heart diseases. Infact, the current evidences and theories say that dietary cholesterol has near to no role in heart diseases. I can link u the studies to that.

"Nope it is a stretch, cause ur body also makes cholesterol. The cholesterol u get from diet is not the only source. And the no. 1 cause of high cholesterol in plague build up is due to decreased HDL (High density cholesterol lipoproteins), which can be inherited or lack of excerice, the other causes are increased LDL (low density cholesterol lipoproteins). So lack of excericise or genetic predisposition, is therefore the most common cause of heart diseases. Infact, the current evidences and theories say that dietary cholesterol has near to no role in heart diseases. I can link u the studies to that." This is why you don't need dietary cholesterol, because your own body produces it, and it's also why it is hazardess to have too much of. If it is true that lack of exercise is the real issue then why is it that vegans don't suffer from high cholesterol like omnivores do? "You get a rich amount of proteins, B12, other micro-nutrients. There is more cholesterol, but that can be adjusted with higher fibre from the plants and u can monitor how much cholesterol u r intaking if u r that worried. There is lower carbs, which is really good for health." You do know that the B12 in meat isn't naturally occurring, its artificially fortified right? (You can thank factory farming and soil erosion on that) Aka a supplement? And that omnivores also suffer with B12 deficiencies? The micronutrients you get aren't necessary to be healthy as well. And vegans are perfectly higher with a low fat high carb diet, unless you can prove otherwise?

lemme just say im really enjoying this debate. no intellectual dishonesty, just facts thanks, I'm enjoying this, its refreshing

"If it is true that lack of exercise is the real issue then why is it that vegans don't suffer from high cholesterol like omnivores do?" Vegans do suffer from high cholesterol. Among the studies u linked, the adventist one shows a link of 0.89 w.r.t non-vegans, which definitely less than non-vegans (1) but still quite close. Thus vegans also suffer from high cholesterol to nearly closer rates like omnivores do. Infact, I would contest that even the 0.11 difference that came was due to higher tendecy of carnists to indulge in fast food, rather than due to non-veg. "This is why you don't need dietary cholesterol, because your own body produces it, and it's also why it is hazardess to have too much of" Cholesterol is not a complete hazard, cholesterol is a very important part of ur cell membranes, hormones, intenstinal juices and many other things. The cholesterol that is particularly hazardous is the one that is not cleared from blood properly, and that job is done by HDL (which is also a cholesterol compound), and with lack of excercise HDL decreases, which causes cholesterol to pile up in blood and all those nasty problems occur. Dietary cholesterol has no role in this. It was earlier thought that dietary cholesterol influenced the cholesterol pile up, but those were recently disproven (5 years back I guess).