debate

Lol, I didn't see this come back. Ok, now that I've set up my multiple tabs let's jump into it. So, yeah, I will agree less meat is better. But like I said before, there hasn't been any study that proves a vegan (all plant, no meat) diet is superior to a diet that is mostly plants but still contains lean meat in some portion. I feel like there's some miscommunication. I'm not really debating the finer points of having to eat meat or whatever, my only sticking point is just that, the lack of evidence resulting in superiority. Everything else has been opinions and that's not really debatable. In terms of what meat gives that plants can't, it's basically vitamin B12 naturally. Vegan foods have been fortified with supplementation, which is why I said I don't have a problem with veganism so long as people are aware that they need to replace one source for another. Not saying all vegans or that this is even a particularly vegan-only trait but I've had patients who go full steam into vegan, raw food diets who then end up in the hospital with pernicious anemia. As I recommend with all diet change, make sure that you still get what you need whenever you cut off a supply. So LDL, yeah, we want it to be under 40. HDL should be higher at >60 (anything lower and it's a risk factor for heart disease) and total cholesterol (TC) is under 200. While it's true that you don't really hear much about what happens if LDL is too low (probably cause it could be unethical to study if the risk factors are as such), I don't think it pertains to your point. So for the sake of your argument, I'll say sure you want TC to be a bit lower and yeah, I agree that most people in America do have higher than desirable TC. I wouldn't say that it's impossible for vegans to not have high cholesterol because you have people who have genetic disorders that cause them to have high cholesterol (specifically LDL cause that's the "bad cholesterol"). I can see vegans having high cholesterol if they use a lot of like coconut and coconut oil, palm oil, basically plant-based foods that have high saturated oil. Basically we want to reduce saturated fats rather than cholesterol as a whole which is higher in people who do eat meat, but I don't know as to whether a vegan or say someone who's only animal protein intake is like fish wouldn't have similar cholesterol profiles. Sorry if I sound condescending, I'm not trying to be, just sort of laughing that I sound like preceptors I've had. We've all been there. It does require a bit of a mind shift for me since I'm usually used to discussing studies with people who studied biostats and stuff so I'll apologize if it seems I'm trying to put you down. If you have studies that you'd want opinions on based off statistics or study design, feel free to like PM me or something, this is so long lol. So that brings me to the last study you posted. So it has a cohort non-randomized design. I'm not super sure why you linked me this study because there's no control that it compares itself to so it doesn't compare itself to either medication that lowers cholesterol or other dietary methods. The study itself doesn't really have a lot of weight because of the non-randomized nature (if you pick people who are adamant about changing their lifestyle but only monitor diet, is it because of diet or maybe because they started exercising more), and the self-reporting (people lie). Would DASH reverse specifically CAD? Eeehhh, not specifically, but it's not targeted at cholesterol levels bu probably since you'll be increasing your HDL which will lower LDL. You'll note that I stated that it reduces CV so cardiovascular disease. Specifically, DASH is the dietary approach to stopping hypertension which can lead to heart attacks (MI in the medical terminology), stroke, cardiac remodeling, etc. Will it lower cholesterol? Sure, cause you cut out a lot of saturated fats following it. Do I know any studies that prove reversal of CAD? Not off the top of my head and I don't have access to uptodate to find one T-T

ok so as i linked, the fact that the vegan diet is the only diet that can say they have reversed CAD, the largest killer in the us, is reason enough to say that diet is superior for the whole cholesterol thing, your not making a good argument. sure someone with a genetic defect could have insanely low or high cholesterol, that goes with vegan and carnist diets. calling out such a niche disorder is splitting hairs. the point is that our bodies make enough cholesterol for us to be healthy and too low cholesterol is so rare that they dont even have much research on the outcome on the body. i'll also add that babies born with such a condition usually die straight after birth or in the womb (its believed to be the source for many miscarriages) so again, this point also goes to veganism. you bring up cholesterol in fish but id ask whats the point in even eating fish for your diet? i asked you what nutrition meat has that makes the high amounts of cholesterol and saturated fat worth it. that same goes for fish. as far as im concerned the only thing fish gives us (i cant remember what that is atm but if you need i can go back and find the nutrient xD my apologies) is thanks to the plants they eat. the plants contain it, not fish themselves. id say for have no formal training in this im holding my own pretty well :o? i dont think we even need to get into macro or micro nutrients (where id 100% fall flat) when discussing veganism because even a layman like myself can see the bigger ways that veganism is healthier the fact that the dash diet, a diet created to combat heart disease, cant boast the results veganism can says a lot in my opinion. i dont see why meat, dairy, and eggs are so essential to a diet when to be considered healthy they have to be in such a low amount. why not just get rid of them entirely? so bottom line, not only is the vegan diet perfectly healthy (even more healthy then the SAD) but it is also healthier on the planet and more ethically sound. there is no downside for the average person. thats why i love debating veganism, its so easy xD (edit, sorry i totally missed the b12 part, i just woke up xD) b12 isnt naturally occuring in most meats either. its all fortified just like vegan products. thanks to fucked up farming practices cows dont get it naturally (as its not naturally produced in meat itself but simply a form of bacteria that lives in the soil that cows eat) so its always fortified with it. im not sure even grass fed cows even still contain it, but that doesnt matter either because 95% of all meat is factory farmed, not grass fed anyways. just like how cows milk in canada is by law fortified with vitamin D because, again, its the vitamin thats most commonly lacked. animal products are fortified all the time so this isnt an argument either, and even if you did want to bring it up id mention that b12 is lacking in both diet groups. i believe iron deficiency is actually really high in omnivores, more so than vegans. you can also get vegan forms of b12 via fungus. youll find vitamins lacking in all diets because there is no perfect diet, but there are diets that are objectively better than others.

ill do a soft debate on abortion :> wont be a blood sports debate like veganism

Although i dont think abortion is right, im pro-abortion soooo. The only cases i think are justified are rape. Everything else i just think ur a murderer. You did the deed and dont wanna live up to the responsibility so that blood should be on your hands