debate

This may be an odd thing to say but, this is so interesting to watch from a bystanders point of view. there are various different points that you peeps are making and there are several aspects that I agree and disagree with. Not only that but it helps me understand specific points that I never considered before.

thats what debates are for! theyr mental exercises that test ones opinions against another and as i stated before, losing a debate does not make that person right, it can simply mean that they have more evidence on hand and experience with debates @matchesia if you like to watch debates you should moderate some i always hate when people try and attack my debate style instead of my points and they never give proof, so to have a moderator on hand for both of us to appeal to would do wonders

Well usually I'm the one who gets myself into debates, so for me it's a change of pace. Yeah I might try doing some form of argument moderating at some stage, however the layout of this forum kinda makes it a bit difficult imo

@everyone im here to debate veganism on the grounds of ethics matchesia is willing to moderate as well >w>/ (i love debates, the mental stimulation i get is so fun)

I had to leave for a bit. In response to AGES ago Lamby. How comfortable does an animal need to be before its ethical to kill it? I think this was it. Personally for me I would say as comfortable as the human facilitating the slaughter can make it. If there is no effort its not humane. Even hunters who cause extreme pain and discomfort to animals in their final moments usually act fast to finish the creature off with a throat slit or blow to the head. This would be humane in my eyes. There are animal cruelty laws sure. But when it comes down to a correct way to put down an animal ethically perhaps its best to use predators in nature as an example. Maybe a standard can be found. I'll examine some of the common ways predators kill as well as exceptions. I won't examine invertebrates as their behaviours are alien and not often transferable to more intelligent animals. In fact most other vertebrates will not even bother to kill invertebrates when consuming them often swallowing them whole. The trend in veterbrate Animalia carnivores seems to be focused on a kill technique. Large tooth and claw carnivores often go for the throat to end an animal's life as promptly as possibly. Crocodilians drag and roll and their prey into the water drowning them. Snakes will use a deadly poison and/or constrict their prey to death before consuming them whole. Birds of prey will kill their prey by tearing at their prey with talon and beak before eating it. Universally it seems we like to kill things BEFORE we eat it. I wouldn't assume that animals do this to be compassionate to their prey, but rather to make sure a small creature doesn't damage their digestive tract by moving and to make the eating process more enjoyable by taking their time with the carcus. It also makes it easier to prepare the meat to be fed to young or other family members of the hunter. There are however creatures that do eat other intelligent vertebrates alive such as the Komodo Dragon and from first hand witnessing it I can say it looks horrific. Speceis with considerable intelligence such as apes, monkeys and dolphins can be seen not only killing their prey in a variety of different ways and they don't always do it for food and will actually make sport of killing and harassing other animals. The Orca Whale (which is actually a dolphin) in particular show parallels in human behaviour that could stem from similar roles in their eco system. They are the Dominant species of every Ocean on earth being more intelligent and robust than whales and much larger than any other dolphin. Being unchallenged they seem to take sport in the torture and torment of other species. Throwing seals into the air, whacking penguins and even dropping elbows on Blue Whales. Yet in all this time they have been nothing but nice to people. (personally I think they are just smart enough to know that we are smart to know that are smart enough to know..... you get it.) Oh crap I went on a tangent. The point is... looking at nature it seems the general rule is be quick with your killings. And the smarter you are the more of a dick you are likely to be. And there are exceptions like Komodo Dragons and such. Animals comfort before the killing is irrelevant. Its about to die and it won't care in a few moments. Revelling in their discomfort before death is reallly scummy.

im gonna take a break for the night to work on writing and ill get to your response in the morning >w>/

All good. To follow up on my own points. I'd say because intelligent creatures are more likely to random shit that can be cruel, Its important to check ourselves and makes sure we aren't too douchey.

okie back! sorry to debate i usually have to get my brain into debate mode instead of just chill out mode like its usually in (this always happens fuck xD) So on how to ethically kill an animal you said we should do it how predators kill prey? Why is that? Isn't it more moral for us, who have the ability to question the ethicacy of our actions, to instead strive to do as little harm as humanly possible? (And the way invertibrates kill their prey is exactly like how others do, just poison/bite/crush/melt and consume) This goes back to the point that this is a needless killing. How is it moral to needlessly kill a creature that desperately wants to live? And why is it moral to, if your going to end it's life, do it in such a horrible way such as how animals do it? We humans hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals do in nearly every other way, so why are we lowering ourselves in this regard? Intelligent animals play with food because they have the ability to experience play, but this isn't only observed in particularly intelligent species like marine mammals and certain bird species. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx-CxuAeVPo Cows are lower on the intelligence spectrum but still will engage in play. It has a subjective life experience. Even basic prey animals like rabbits enjoy playing. So in nature rape is also a natural occurrence, as well as killing the previous young of a mate. Can humans engage in these activities as well by the same logic?

Veganism, you've been beating this dead horse for years. You have stamina. I'll give you that. https://i.ani.me/0192/3453/sequence.jpg

are you talking to me or the discussion of veganism in general?\ i just like to debate and veganism is the easiest stance to take