debate

So I've been going over the studies cited in the two links you've provided and I haven't seen specifically where they did a superiority/inferiority trial to diets that also provide preventatives towards diabetes and cardiovascular disease. To say that veganism is the only diet that reverses CAD isn't completely accurate. It's well known that any diet that is rich in fruits, vegetables, and low-fat dairy and low in saturated fats is key. I'll specifically list the DASH diet which is pretty much the go-to in terms of talking to patients about lifestyle changes, https://www.wikijournalclub.org/wiki/DASH (the published trial is in the link, I just think it's easier to see in journal club form cause I'm lazy :P). Which is why such recommendations are in pretty much all the guidelines like ADA and ACC/AHA. Even in the meta-analysis that's cited in your first article [13], they mention only a reduction in ischemic heart disease and cancer but not from cardiovascular disease with regards to vegans vs vegetarians. I will say from a personal front, the only thing I'm worried about regarding vegans is those that also insist that the foods they eat contain no fortification or enrichment. That's why I end up having to sling out B12 shots a lot. Those are not fun. I think veganism is fine on a health basis, but just be cognizant about what you might need to supplement when you don't eat certain food products

looking through your list i didnt see meats added to the dietary list, but i could easily be missing it if it is true that a diet high in fruits and vegetables is the key factor, then isnt that supporting my claim? meat is extraordinarily high in saturated fats and cholesterol, which are both terrible for your heart in my opinion you shouldnt take in any extra cholesterol from outside sources as your body can produce its own, and theres never been a case of someone with low cholesterol having heart disease. (my assertion here being that having high cholesterol has everything to do with heart disease) you do not need a b12 shot, there are vegan sources of b12. im not sure why you said vegan food isnt fortified when it absolutely is. i drink Silk chocolate milk and its fortified with both B12 and vitamin D nearly all our food is. and also as iv brought up before carnists also need supplementation for similar things, and nearly everyone is deficient in vitamin D the thing people dont get is there is no perfect diet, theres always a risk of needing supplements, but the superior diet is one that is low on saturated fat and cholesterol

Plant-based diets are not specifically plant-only. My only gripe is really specific towards your claim that a vegan diet is the only diet that is proved to reduce/prevent CV diseases and DM, which isn't true as you'll note from my included trial regarding DASH diet or even if you want to look up the actual guidelines towards hypertension and diabetes which is the ACC/AHA guidelines and ADA respectively under lifestyle modifications (I think the ADA one is actually easier to read since they split the guidelines up by topic). A diet that is high in fruits and vegetables yet still contains lean meat (palm size with regards to DASH, unspecified in regards to the meta-analysis that's in your own cited article) has not been proved to be less effective for cardiovascular health compared to a plant-only diet. Like I mentioned before, the meta-analysis cited as 13 in your first article even stated in the results that there were only reductions regarding ischemia and cancer, not overall cardiovascular health when comparing a vegan diet to a vegetarian. I wouldn't say that high cholesterol is the only cause of heart disease. Dyslipidemia is a risk factor but so is hypertension which can also be caused by high sodium intake, stress, alcohol excess, lack of exercise, genetics, etc. You do actually need vitamin B12 shots for when you are deficient as that leads to pernicious anemia which can be life-threatening. I didn't actually say vegan foods are not fortified but that there are lifestyle choices that correlate with veganism that also includes forgoing all foods that are not considered "natural" including foods that are enriched. There are no vegan foods that do not undergo a process that enriches them with B12 since that is a vitamin solely found in animal products naturally. Sure there's no perfect one size fits all diet since we have to take in patient factors. I agree with the health benefits of a diet low in saturated fats and cholesterol, however, I remain unconvinced that a vegan diet is superior compared to any other diet low in saturated fats and cholesterol. I also doubt vitamin D deficiency since we all pretty much get sun. LOL, god, I feel like a preceptor going after a resident :p

but you even admitted the less meat the better? what does lean meat give you that you can not get on a vegan diet?? from what i saw in your study was the less meat they ate the better also yes vitamin D deficiency is the most common vitamin deficiency, and appears among all diet ranges https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/act.2013.19309?journalCode=act especially among the black community because they can not absorb it as efficiently and iron deficiency is, again, also high in carnists so i guess now i reiterate the question what lean meat gives you that a vegan diet can not? ill remind you that protein in a vegan diet is easy to get in, even if what they eat isnt as protein dense, atleast it doesnt come full with the substance that is the reason heart disease is the number one killer in america vegan protein gives you fiber carnist protein gives you cholesterol from what iv seen its much healthier to be lower in cholesterol than higher in it https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/cholesterol-level/faq-20057952 and it is impossible to be high in cholesterol on a vegan diet can i also ask for a link that says the dash diet has been proven to reverse CHD? also, id ask you not to act condescending as you have had formal training where im semi-self taught in this nutrient debate >w>/

ooookkk so im back, anyone wanna debate the ethics of veganism >w>? i wouldnt mind a soft abortion debate either, im still polishing my argument there

i agree >w>/ iv been teetering on mortally if its ok or not ok, but after listening to some debates iv come to the realization that its just a moral neutral and it just comes down to bodily autonomy

It's kinda interesting how Lamby has an insatiable desire to debate veganism when the vegan lifestyle claims moderation as one of its virtues. https://media.tenor.com/images/a2741132a4f7ddf637513737364d87d9/tenor.gif

the biggest argument iv seen and that iv agreed with is "when the baby becomes a person" i use to think it started at conception, but i agree more that it comes when the baby is actually sentient, which occurs at 18 to 25 weeks best argument though is the bodily autonomy rights of the mother over the fetus that her well being is priority to a non sentient fetus