Shots fired at High School in Florida, numerous fatalities.

I wish it was that simple. Take the guns away and it would fix everything but it doesn't. http://youtu.be/ko6Tz0k7aQ4 http://youtu.be/gkihdDX6gfk UK doesn't have guns right? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tube-bomb-plot-damon-smith-north-greenwich-train-jailed-ball-bearings-a7757056.html

If you plan to start with your second amendment crap, I beg you. Please hang yourself. That 's the worst argument you can bring. Following your logic we should have held on to the constitution of the Weimarer Republic and never ever changed it.... great, but said constitution brought Hitler to power on a legal way. So maybe you should think a bit about your "GREATES" constitution....

Buke-kun why such hostility? You just need a hug. https://myanimelist.cdn-dena.com/s/common/uploaded_files/1460988091-6e86cd666a30fcc1128c585c82a20cdd.gif

Bukephalos, Sure if you could (I assume by an Australian style ban on semi-auto rifles and any number of other weapons deemed too dangerous or high capacity or whatever language or terminology) get rid of all of those guns and keep them out of the hands of deranged loners that typically shoot up schools such as Lanza or Cruz you could save lives like the ones that were lost yesterday - I'm not even going to dispute that. I'll even go with your 9/10 example of guns/bombs. So yeah we've dropped deaths at schools by 90%. However the regulations and disarming that would be required to achieve such a result would have deadlier consequences just about everywhere else thus resulting in MORE lives lost. I would imagine though that if they really couldn't get their hands on guns the school bombings would rise (how much - fuck knows but its not illogical to think that someone hell bent on destruction will find a way) I don't know if you've read something in my other post but in America more gun deaths (non suicide) are in heavily regulated areas where legal means of acquiring firearms are minimal if at all. Guns *save* lives all the time but it isn't often reported and it takes more digging to see this (whether they are fired or not). A gun may even take a life saving a life so at minimum you saved the life of a (more or less?) non violent person and taken the life of someone who doesn't have much if any regard for the life of others. However whose to say it has to be 1-1 .... maybe one guy with a gun wants to kill dozens but someone armed could stop it from getting that high so 1 life gone to 2-dozens saved (leaving the "lives saved" at at least one but could exceed 10 or more). How many you may ask? I don't think anybody can give an accurate answer as like how many rapes truly happened in a given area per time period it is nearly impossible due to the lack of reporting. It sounds cliche to say but America really is different in that... where are there are more legally owned guns (gun de-regulated areas) there are less fatalities (non suidice) or gun violence. One other thing Americans know (or at least pro gun Americans) is the history of a disarmed society - many a great genocide was started by disarming the populace. A great genocide will claim many more lives than currently situated gun situation in America. Also the right of arms and self defense is a right and if that right is to be revoked or curtailed greatly there better be overwhelming evidence that it will work in America with American societal problems a factor. Even if you could feasibly (and one can't in America - that pesky Constitution and all) enact a gun ban or very heavy gun control in America it can't be reasonably proven to even bet a net positive. That is the problem that anti-gunners won't and seemingly can't address. It isn't enough to say "we stopped the shootings at the schools" and call it a day (especially if there is more gun death damn near everywhere else) what about all of the other gun fatalities. Defensive gun uses range from as little as 55,000 (very low end) to over 4 million https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use so I'll take 5,000 off of the low end for 50,000 .... Compare 50,000 to the often cited 33,000 (or so... and with most of those suicides but I'll leave those in for this one). That's a net of 17,000 right there (and again this is using the most minimal of estimates). Mind you these defensive uses vary greatly in the amount of force inflicted in said defense (from just brandishing a weapon and not firing - to yes shooting and killing). Even if the exchange is one life for another I don't think it can be that simple to end things there. The attacker (usually - or one would reasonably think) would show little or no regard for the life of others so if he is not somehow stopped he can victimize someone else so on and so forth. Even if all 50,000 resulted in a death ... that's still a net of 17,000 times a gun was used defensively to defend someone and/or their loved ones over simple destruction. So even at the lowest most conservative estimates I don't see how banning guns or very heavily regulating them would be a net positive here in America. Will it do good - I've already admitted that it *would* do good. However an important question would be - would it do more *harm than good* ?

I also hardly find bringing up the Second Amendment a horrible argument - it is one of our Bill of Rights which by our history are inalienable rights unique to our country. It protects all of our other rights (like our rightfully treasured Freedom of Speech). If I'm going to have a RIGHT taken from me there better be definitive overwhelming proof that GUNS are the CAUSATION (not correlation - however strong a correlation) anything less than that isn't proof strong enough to give up a right. I would even imagine you would want to focus on "a well regulated" like you've got me there or something (not knowing what that phrase actually meant at that time and if it were written in today's language would mean). If the Second Amendment should change it should change based off of what I mentioned above and previously. Look at Chicago homicide statistics and let me know how that gun control works in America (they have the lovely draconian level of gun control - not to be confused with the image of America having *legal* access to guns everywhere) EDIT: I'm somewhat aware that the rest of the world less legal guns = less gun deaths (even just by criminals) but in America this simply does not hold true at all. In America the amount of guns in the hands of citizens has skyrocketed and the crime in America has...... plummeted (correlation - causation ... debatable sure). A super overwhelmingly majority of the non suicide gun deaths over here are in places with heavy gun restrictions. I know many non Americans just want to use the same formula that seems to work in the rest of the world but it simply won't. You can site 6 gun deaths vs 30,000 - what more could I want you ask.... proof that guns bans / heavy regulation will work the same way over here (and saying "it works here" isn't alone the substance required for such a decision)

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/ https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Map-US-Murder-Fixed.jpg https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/c8oZV6mBcQXrACnxV3POCVC-F8Q=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9371435/firearm_homicide_deaths.png https://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/ https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/OECD-and-Small-Arms-Survey.png The problem is much more complicated than assuming "more guns = more murder".

*slowly faps in corner* I love hard core debates *__*

Thank you Shinu.... and I don't even need to open up much research to know that the darker shades on the top map (the ones with the varying colors of red shading) are areas with stricter gun laws. California, Chicago, New York City - three very strict gun control strongholds in America that do their best to mimic Europe / Australia .... have higher murder rates (although these are also very highly populated areas which is a viable counter claim) these areas really skew national statistics though.