[Serious] Genderfluid/Non-binary/Queers

i agree with @radioactiveSkittles words and meaning are changing all the time, look as some of the words we use as slang now that meant a whole different definition hundreds of years ago? just look at the word of the year...its a freaking emoji! so who is to say that the words "they" or "them" shouldn't be use for other definitions then their original purpose..

I have a belief in purity of language - that is out of the scope of discussion but unless you import es, for example from German, a related language, you end up with serious ambiguity. Examples below: *John wishes to become involved in the college's SGA. He needs to go to their office and obtain the forms to be allowed on the ballot. All fine here because "he" and "they" can be assigned individually to John and the SGA. Now, lets say John prefers "they". Here's where the problems begin: * John went to the office of the SGA and spoke to the staff. They gladly provided them the forms. Problem - it is unclear who did what, and someone without context is unable to tell otherwise. Thus, you're forced to use proper nouns for one or the other. Import es and apply it to John - problem solved: *They gladly provided es the forms. This is a pure example of the many problems this causes. I'm for language purity because I find it annoying how much languages don't seem to bother to have self-rolled solutions and instead have to borrow from within the language or from another - but German and English are close cousins. SEE THE FUCKING PROBLEM YOU'RE CREATING??? As far as trans people's bodies go - every legitimately trans person who has gone through the hormones and such that I have met, in person, wants sexual reassignment surgery. Some may not want that pre-hormones, but the number of people I've met IRL, they always end up changing their minds down the road. And no, I don't mean phalloplasty is necessary for guys, but vaginectomy is fine, and I highly disagree with the medical community allowing Mr. Thomas Beatie to cycle between testosterone and oestrogen so he can use his half-functioning uterus to pop out kids. That's medically unsafe for his children and his own body - and the doctor's ethics code says to do no harm. And cycling between hormones is BAD for your body. I think the most convincing way to enforce the mandate would be to require after, I dunno, 5-10 years that the surgery be done to renew your drivers license etc. I mean, a lot of trans people I know aren't opposed to surgery being a requirement, but they prefer it to not be a barrier to getting their documents in the first place. Case rested. I'm done with this discussion with you both. If someone else wants to step up - I'm all for it.

It almost seems as if everybody's definition of what make someone male, female, or whatever is different... flame war or not if a solid foundation, of sorts, isn't made then it's almost an absolute that there will be no resolution of ANY sort. For example one person seems to be saying that for most cases genitalia is a major factor in determining gender while another at best might only half agree with that and someone else might think it has more to do with how the person feels about themselves and that definitions do not matter or that the genitalia that one was born with doesn't matter due to modern day surgical procedures. If neither party can even agree on a minimum of 1 defining factor then its like trying to find the answer to 2 apples Plus 2 apples equals 4 apples except you are trying to add 2 chairs plus one apple Plus a newspaper to equal 4 apples....

Yeah sorry about that, I've never been great with grammar and this is coming from my iPhone rather than a laptop or with an easy to use keyboard.

At the end of the day, humans use emotion much more than reason. There's nothing you can do about it. I, myself am guilty of it at times. But I want reason on my side, and even with my emotion, I am guided to some degree by reason. I'm by no means infallible, but I consider myself a notch above the average person when it comes to certain things because I feel I can be more rational when most aren't.

Very true. Find it very hard myself not to be swept away by emotions rather than sticking to reason. I've found it very difficult not to get swept up by immidiate emotional reactions from this very thread since regardless of one's beliefs either way this kind of thing is very easily stirred up into a flame war and can rarely stay an actual discussion.

I'm not sure how to say this nor is famous would do any good or just stirrup conflict so I'll just say it. Even if you strip away the words that humans come up with to define things such as boy, girl, gender, etc. The fact remains that the animals known as humans are differentiated by nature. Of these animals at this level of evolution there are three starkly different variations. Defined by what they can and cannot do which is defined by their bodies and organs, internally and externally. The three different variations are what we know to be the genitalia and other private parts if you want to get technical about it. Casting aside gender names 1 variation has a penis another has a vagina and the third has organs of both. Now eventually the idea of gender was tied with / to the idea of which human animal head which kind of sexual organ(s) and regardless of what the classification came to be eventually each of these differentiations was classified as a gender due to their sexual organs. If I haven't lost myself in all of this it would seem to follow that No human could possibly lack a gender. I sadly fear though that I completely lost where I was going with this originally when trying to fumble through this on my phone...