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ATTN: MaiOtaku

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daggerfella
<3

so Basically @Midas despite the people who had lived through this,
interviewed and still are alive today that can give an account of the horrors they lived through, its all propaganda?

Despite the fact that the governments and peoples criticized these decisions, and have days of remembrance for these kinds of events?

and the governments recognizing the genocide are just lying right? these people didnt die at all, its just a conspiracy to you.

and on the fact of if or if not Capitalism is Superior, we have 100 years of countries ditching capitalism for pure socialism or pure communism that beg to differ. the lack of Private ownership is one of the BIGGEST reasons why these systems fail.

Communism and Socialism are for Isolationist countries before the Industrial revolution

Every collectivist group that calls out a "Priveledged Group" that is "Cheating" people out of money, ends up killing them, stealing their property, redistributing it and not being able to use it as effectively as the people they took it from causes a economic collapse. Look at what the Collectivists did to the Kulaks

Jan 11, 18 at 12:27pm
jtibbs

You're misconstruing what I said. Socialism works if its executed properly. No nation/government has ever properly executed socialistic ideas, because every person in leadership positions has a personal agenda and humans are greedy. Thats why the term "looks good on paper" exists. On paper socialism works, in reality we can't do it because we're humans. Those people didn't die because their countrys we're communist/socialist. Those people died because their leaders had an agenda. Fake socialism isn't real socialism, just because you claim something, doesn't mean its true.

Jan 11, 18 at 12:32pm
daggerfella
<3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak

Kulaks (Russian: кула́к, tr. kulak, IPA: [kʊˈlak] (About this sound listen), plural кулаки́, Polish: kułak) 'fist', by extension 'tight-fisted'; kurkuli in Ukraine, also used in Russian texts (in Ukrainian contexts) were a category of affluent peasants in the later Russian Empire, Soviet Russia, and the early Soviet Union. The word kulak originally referred to independent farmers in the Russian Empire who emerged from the peasantry and became wealthy following the Stolypin reform, which began in 1906. The label of kulak was broadened in 1918 to include any peasant who resisted handing over their grain to detachments from Moscow. During 1929–1933, Stalin's leadership of the total campaign to collectivize the peasantry meant that "peasants with a couple of cows or five or six acres more than their neighbors" were labeled "kulaks".

According to the political theory of Marxism–Leninism of the early 20th century, the kulaks were class enemies of the poorer peasants. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin described them as "bloodsuckers, vampires, plunderers of the people and profiteers, who fatten on famine". Marxism–Leninism had intended a revolution to liberate poor peasants and farm laborers alongside the proletariat (urban and industrial workers). In addition, the planned economy of Soviet Bolshevism required the collectivisation of farms and land to allow industrialisation or conversion to large-scale agricultural production. In practice, government officials violently seized kulak farms and killed resisters; others were deported to labor camps.

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Basically the Government turned the people AGAINST the most Successful people Amongst them, stole from them and violated their rights, all in the name of the greater good through: 'Dekulakization'

================================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization

Dekulakization (Russian: раскулачивание, raskulachivanie, Ukrainian: розкуркулення, rozkurkulennia) was the Soviet campaign of political repressions, including arrests, deportations, and executions of millions of the better-off peasants and their families in 1929–1932. The Soviet authorities labeled the richer peasants 'kulaks' and portrayed them as class enemies.

More than 1.8 million peasants were deported in 1930–1931. The campaign had the stated purpose of fighting counter-revolution and of building socialism in the countryside. This policy, carried out simultaneously with collectivization in the Soviet Union, effectively brought all agriculture and all the peasants in Soviet Russia under state control.

A combination of dekulakization and collectivization led to mass starvation in many parts of the Soviet Union and the death of an estimated 11 million peasants in the period between 1929 and 1933, including 4 million deaths during the dekulakization campaign. The results soon became known outside the Soviet Union. In 1941, the American journalist H. R. Knickerbocker wrote: "It is a conservative estimate to say that some 5,000,000 [kulaks] ... died at once, or within a few years."

Russia also did this to the Cossacks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decossackization

and lets not forget the bloody revolution that started the USSR to begin with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

Jan 11, 18 at 12:35pm
jtibbs

Honestly, I'm not reading these walls of text. I'm aware of these incidents already.

Jan 11, 18 at 12:36pm
john_felix

Communism is a temporary setback on the road to freedom!

~ Liberty Prime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGaosBHdFMA

Jan 11, 18 at 12:38pm
daggerfella
<3

@Midas, then read this, ill address both State Communism/Socialism and Stateless Communism for you...

you cant have real communism because it doesnt work, it requires a NON POST-INDUSTRIAL WORLD without a STATE.

these ideologies only would have worked before the Modernist era (post ww2) as there is a global market that will always be able to out perform YOU, and the lack of private ownership means that no one qualified can actually be the owner of a business.

Socialism doesnt work either. and its not greed, its the fact that NO COUNTRY CAN MAKE A DECENT ENOUGH GDP WHILE OWNING ALL THE INDUSTRY AND OFFERING 1 CHOICE for each industry. theres no Competition within the country to lead innovation, usually other countries can sell the same products at better qualities and lower prices. And when 1 industry TANKS, it crashes the entire economy....

its not greed, blame the Global market, blame the Statism within Socialism.

Every time a Collectivist Society (such as Socialism, or Communism) collapses, they blame the government, kill them all, kill whom they deem priveledged, and try the same thing over again but with less capable people incharge of the government or industry. the problem is the lack of private ownership. being incharge of your own living is fine, but working with others for a industry with no owner but the workers always leads to a economic collapse.

================= ONTO REAL MARXIST COMMUNISM ==========================

the only communism that would work is Stateless and Classless communism, but in a Global Market, its not possible as your GDP will just drop and drop due to the competition, and peoples standard of living goes down and down.

Planners who plan the use of resources can just abuse their power in stateless communism, and lie about others stealing from the people while bettering themselves, parties that are unioned for power in local governments (not technically a state) can abuse their powers, and governments dont have to provide the same standard of living that someone making 70K/year in the united states would live within....

on paper, yeah it looks fine, but the fact is that its a pre/industrial economic model that doesnt take trade or globalism into account. The lack of competition and private ownership means that the people most suited to run an industry or a business cannot as they have as much say in what the business does as everyone else. no one has to work harder to get more out of it and theres no incentives to study business or a skilled profession unless your father taught it to you.

also if you are aware of those incidents, then dont deny the horrors and attrocities caused by collectivist governments.

Jan 11, 18 at 12:45pm
jtibbs

"Planners who plan the use of resources can just abuse their power in stateless communism, and lie about others stealing from the people while bettering themselves, "

Which is exactly what they did/ still do.

But if it doesn't work then why is China doing so great?

Jan 11, 18 at 12:47pm
daggerfella
<3

in a communist system, planners have no one over them preventing them from abusing their powers within a pure stateless communist system, or the fuedalistic state communism.

atleast in capitalism, they have to comply with laws and unions.

and you are right, this is happening even in Venezuela, especially since stealing the means of production nearly bankrupted their government as you CANNOT VIOLENTLY take the means of production from the people any more...

Jan 11, 18 at 12:50pm
daggerfella
<3

China works because its a Feudalistic system with a ruling class, its Socialism disguised as a Aristocracy.

additionally the censor the internet, violently oppress those who speak out (especially Taiwan, napal, etc)

and its a Aristocratic system where the rich are not subject to the same laws as the non rich, in which these people run political dynasty within their "socialist" system.

China is nearly a Feudalistic system where a large sum of people STILL live in poverty
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42639688

but its a socialist system, whys it not benefiting the people? whys it still afloat?

China made itself adapted to the Global market by offering incentives for people to ship jobs to china as well as keeping the cost of living low for the working poor by freezing the prices of things like rice. They dont have to compete when they have a piss poor standard of living, and a low minimum wage mandated by the government and not the market.

Jan 11, 18 at 12:55pm
daggerfella
<3

North korea does it by lying to its people and claiming every evil that they impose on the people is to protect them from the world that wants to kill them (you cant blame the red scare as the korean war was before it)

They impse similar things the chinese do except they fully deny the internet to most civilians, ship people off to labor camps with their families of they rebel or a member of their family attempts to flee the country, and because of sanctions, north korea makes most of its money through exports to china and russia as well as illegally shipping out north korean workers as cheap labor to work in nordic countries and europe and takes most of their earnings. (In which these people sre heavily watched by someone working for the north koreans so that its all hush hush, vice news did a spot on this).

==================

Now @midas, are you satisfied?

Jan 11, 18 at 1:04pm
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